Yesterday, I resigned as pastor at Peter’s Switch Church of the Nazarene. I begin August 1 as minister at Unitarian Universalist Community Church in Danville, Indiana. This is the effect of a years-long process of theological reflection and change, the results of which are:
1) I have come to prize intellectual and theological freedom. The Church of the Nazarene is like many other denominations in that it offers freedom up to the boundaries of its own theology. One is free to think in any theological way, so long as it is in a Wesleyan way. I can no longer preach and teach only Wesleyan (or American Holiness) theology. I want the freedom to explore truth, religious and otherwise, in all traditions.
2) I have come to question the existence of a personal God. My experience in ministry leads me to believe that an intervening, prayer-answering God does not exist. I have seen the rain fall on the just and the unjust with absolutely no evidence of discrimination. Though I and others have prayed for the sick, the only time I have ever seen anyone recover from life-threatening illness is with the help of medicine. I see all around me examples of un-intelligent design (the appendix, for instance, or the fact that our knees bend forward rather than backward, causing all sorts of joint pain and deterioration). I have come to believe that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and I do not find any proof for the extraordinary claim of a personal god at this point in my journey. I must live with the mystery that we are here but do not know exactly how. ‘The Bible says it’s so’ is no longer an adequate argument for a personal god, which leads me to my third point.
3) I have come to see the Bible as many human-authored works, with its beautiful and horrible parts, rather than a divinely inspired mandate for life (which parts would I choose as patterns for my life? I certainly could not choose them all.). One cannot say both that God is love and that God once required the stoning of homosexuals and children who wouldn’t obey their parents. Our morals have evolved over time, and with them our concepts of who/what God is. This does not require outside intervention.
4) I have come to see homosexual rights, including the right to marry, as a civil rights issue. These people should not be denied what is perhaps the greatest joy in life because others think homosexuality is sinful or ‘unnatural.’ What sort of Christian nation allows a man to go to Las Vegas and, drunk, marry a prostitute, but will not allow two men or women who have been in a committed relationship for 30 years the right of public marriage and legal recognition?
I do not leave the Church of the Nazarene angry. In fact, I am grateful to those who have been and are my friends along the way. However, to maintain personal and professional integrity, I cannot help but part ways with the denomination which gave my my start in ministry. I am saddened to have to leave such a wonderful, sincere group of people, but when belief is held as the highest virtue and the route to eternal reward, separation can never be far away.
First off, let me congratulate you on your ministerial move. I applaud your courage and decisiveness in welcoming the opportunity to pursue what you really believe, and turning away from what you disbelieve.
Concerning Point #1: That sounds very, very familiar to me. Being a mind-slave to some organization or someone else’s religious ideals is quite taxing on one’s happiness.
Concerning Point #2: I am as close to atheism as I’ve ever been, and I really don’t feel the least bit badly about it. I won’t say that the Dawkins book I got from you is life-changing, but it is certainly eye-opening and not a little confirming of some of the things I’ve wrestled with the last couple of years. I like the opening paragraphs where he talks about those who leave a religion when they “didn’t know they could”. That’s powerful. I can be an atheist if I choose that’s what makes the most sense to ME, and I don’t have to answer to anyone about that decision.
Concerning Point #3: That the Bible has made an impact on the world is an understatement, I know, but there is a lot of disagreement concerning the good versus the bad of it’s influence. But, of course, once you step aside from believing every word to be “God breathed”, you see that’s the way it is with all of the holy books. The majority of the people I’ve been around couldn’t tell me a damn thing about why they believe it’s authentic, just that they’ve heard all their lives that it’s so, therefore it must be.
Concerning Point #4: I admire your openness about such a fiery matter. I’m personally not decided yet about some of the legal aspects of homosexuality, but I certainly have no qualms about the personal side of it. It’s for sure not for me, I don’t even have to try it to know it, but I’m not gonna be an ass and say that no one else can enjoy that lifestyle.
Once again, congratulations. Amy & I will look forward to hearing more about all of the transitions when we all meet next month. Until then…peace!
Thanks for the thoughtful response. I look forward to the discussion in July.
You brought up your right to choose your own belief. That’s one of the illogical things about fundamentalism. It tries to force people to say they believe things. However, one cannot make oneself believe something. Why not simply admit that and begin to allow people to be honest about their doubts and concerns?
Andy,
Thank you for sharing your beliefs. I admire the courage it takes to do so. You have been a light for me. You have had a tremdous impact (a positive impact) on the spirituality of my husband, my son, and myself. We owe a great deal to you. May you find peace and truth on your continued journey. I look forward, in anticipation, to the times our journeys will cross.
Blessings to you and your family!
Thank you for the kind words. I appreciate the support, and the fact that, though we may not agree on absolutely everything, you all are still friends. It means a lot right now.
Andy,
I respect your decision to leave the Church. I disagree with many of your personal and political beliefs, but it is not my point in this posting to argue them. Every person must make his or her own spiritual journey, it is how we grow.
I think you have done the right thing in making your opinions known. You have the right to follow your beliefs. I wish you well in the future. Maybe one day we can sit down over a cup of coffee and discuss what each of us has learned along the way. We can agree to disagree.
It means the world to me that you’ve said what you’ve said. I want to be sure and share that cup of coffee, as I believe every single human being has something to teach the other. I appreciate you and all your hard work.
“…I believe every single human being has something to teach the other.” In the words of William Black from Clerks: “That’s beautiful, man.”
http://www.moviewavs.com/php/sounds/?id=gog&media=MP3S&type=Movies&movie=Clerks"e=beautifulman.txt&file=beautifulman.mp3
Andy,
I have read your reasons for leaving the CON and conclude that it is just not the CON but evangelical Chrisitanity you have departed from. I am not here to debate or criticize your decision. You know that you and Heather are like family to me.
My heart hurts for you as I read how you believe there is no existence of a personal God. The ultimate healing in this life is to go on to eternity and live forever and not cling to the things of this world. Faith is the element of a personal relationship with God that ushers in His presence and power. I, more than most, know that people can knock that faith right out of you with self-centered agendas under the guise of spirituality. Ultimately, we will be known for the fruit we bear and only a God greater than us can fully understand it.
God created the universe and all of creation and because we are created in His likeness He has allowd us to be creative. Sometimes to our own detriment, but I believe if we seek the only God that we will find Him and be satisfied with that encounter.
Religion has spoiled many relationships with God based on people’s opinions and culture’s downward spiral of unethical and immoral behavior. Many have fallen on the same sword that Satan himself fell on and that is the false assumption or convincing that we can be just as God and all we have to do is determine what is right for us and seek our own truth and identity and hope to see you in the by and by.
Our culture today is pluralistic and yet everyone seems to be okay with all the roads to spiritual bliss except those who choose the path of Christ. We have become the “right wingers” and narrow minded people who are holding up the forthcoming utopia.
My friend, this world is not fair, there is no justice here for humanity has fallen and is self-centered and people die and do many terrible things. The good news is I have a Redeemer who has transformed my life and is working in me daily for I have not arrived and I do not have it made. I must continue to seek and hunger for this God of Creation to continue His work in me until it is my time to go be with Him. Until then I will love Him, love myself, and love others no matter who they are and how they believe.
Religion and denominationalism have set up rules and practices that do nothing more than keep the machine oiled and I believe that God would have a word with us pertaining to that as well. I also believe God is raising people with sharp minds (as yourself) to face the giant of denominationalism and get back to serving the Creator of the universe instead of a denomination.
Having said that, I believe in the doctrines of the CON but also realize that things are changing and obviously they need to. I hope I live long enough to see us go back to hungering for God and giving our lives to see others find that personal relationship with Him as well instead of throwing a party for reaching Holiness Today goals and reading missionary books. Too many souls are perishing and we simply do not care enough to leave our comfort zone or change the maintenance minded philosophies for fear of loosing what we have (which is steadfastly declining).
I apologize for rambling a bit here but I want you to know that I love you and your family and will be praying that you find the truth.
Sometime education presents our own ego as the authority over things mystical and spiritual. I have been tempted to go that route myself. Except I look at my past and see where God has brought me and I know that He still transforms lives today. God bless man, and I will see you around some of the Burnette events!!
Gary
Gary,
Thank you so much for your comment. It expressed everything I feel, but could not put into words.
Andy and Heather,
I love you as if you were my own kids. Every since I heard of your denouncing of Christ as Redeemer and God as Sovreign, I have been broken-hearted. I don’t have the eloquence of words that you have, but I have a rock-solid knowledge of God as Supreme and Christ Jesus as my Savior. Not only does my heart break for you, it breaks for Marcus and the multitude of others that you have misled to the destruction of their souls. I am sure you are sincere in your expression of your ‘beliefs’ and obviously you are searching for solid ground to base your life upon. I will not ridicule you or discount you as a person because of this change. I respect and admire you too much for that. I will just continue in earnest prayer that the miracles that you say God never does will occur in your life so that you can have your eyes opened again to the Truth, which is Jesus Christ. I love you both more than you can know and I will continue to covet you in prayer that Satan will lose his hold on you and you may again be victorious in your personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Becky
I am also a Nazarene Pastor and I can honestly say that your post resonates with me in a lot of ways. I have been taking part of the emergent conversation for the last few years and most recently this conversation is taking place even among Nazarenes. Your convictions push the same boundaries that many of us have felt on different levels. To address your first point- I am sure we are pushing boundaries that make many old school Nazarenes extremely uncomfortable.
As for me, I can no longer call myself an evangelical, and sometimes I don’t even like to be called a “Christian”. I much rather see myself simply as a follower of Jesus. I can deeply relate to what you said in point number 2. I simply don’t believe that God often is active in people’s lives the way they PRETEND he is. I have a hard time thinking the check I got in the mail in the nick of time so I can pay my mortgage was an act of God’s providence when I know a child dies every 30 seconds from starvation in places in Africa. I just don’t think God works that way, and his presence in the world is not seen in the strings we think he is pulling, it is in whatever love, kindness, and goodness that can be found in the world even among the most desperate of suffering.
Point 3) I agree with you 100% about scripture! The scriptures are the work of human beings; and even if it is inspired by God it does not mean that it is “inerrant”. The Bible is NOT “the word of God”, Jesus Christ is the word of God, and he as he put it he came to make the written code “complete”. This implies that the written scripture is INCOMPLETE; it has limitations and is fallible. Like you I believe that morality evolved over time and what we have in scripture is not the final word on anything but a great example of how humanity wrestled with morality in their context as they follow God. I think fundamentalism has really damaged the way western/modern Christians look at scripture and turn it to a prescriptive connect the dots that can only end in an empty religion. I think scripture is much richer when we embrace the humanity of it.
Point 4) Regardless on what we think about homosexuality the way “Christians” have treated homosexuals is atrocious. I recently blogged about how “God delights in Ellen Degenerous” and got some entertaining flack because I didn’t condemn her. I have other Nazarene Pastor friends who also think the way you do about this issue, even more progressively than I do.
I am sorry to hear that you are going, I used to feel very alone with my convictions (I even left the church of the Nazarene for a time/ I sometimes can’t believe I am back) but I can say I have found a very safe circle of Nazarene friends both on and off my district to share these things with. I don’t feel I betray at all what it means to be a member of the Church of the Nazarene by my beliefs, in fact I think legalism and fundamentalism is a far worse betrayer of these things. I am sorry to hear that you are going because we need more progressive thinkers like yourself.
I wish you well, if you ever need a friend feel free to contact me.
peace,
James
http://www.emergentnazarenes.com
indigenousstranger.blogspot.com
Gary: For some reason, I’m not getting notifications about comments, but let me say that I thank you for your concern. We probably owe you more on your food bill than we owe our own parents.
Becky:
Thanks for your concern. Of course, I don’t feel I’ve misled anyone to the destruction of their souls. God would be supremely unfair to allow such a thing to happen. I would be quite sincerely interested to know about the undisputable miracles which have occurred in your own life (again, this is a sincere request, not a smart alec one).
James:
As was the case with Gary and Becky, I didn’t get notification of this post and am just reading it. I would love to talk with you further. Where are you geographically? Shoot me an e-mail if you’d like.
Andy,
Thank you for responding. I haven’t been back on since I wrote last. Someone told me today that you had requested some answers. I would love to talk with you face to face, if for no other reason than to assure you that I love and care about you very much. Sometimes my written words don’t carry my true feelings and are rather abrupt. I don’t mean that to occur. My statement regarding influencing others to the destruction of their souls is based on my belief that Jesus Christ is the only way to God the Father. I believe that if a person is striving to be a spiritual leader and denies that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, then he is in effect leading that person away from God and the salvation of his soul. Of course that belief is based on the Bible where it states that the only way to God is through the Son. Obviously, we won’t agree because our foundation of belief is vastly different.
Regarding miracles, the most vivid in my memory and one I am reminded of daily was in 2005 when we had an auto accident. I know without a doubt that God reached down and stop our van before it hit the tree on the incline and flipped our van over. The state trooper and other witnesses said we should have both been killed. I saw the tree coming and knew what the end result would be and breathed a prayer, “Jesus, stop this van.” AND HE DID. It cannot be explained any other way. It denied the laws of nature and gravity. The only injury was my back which should have been alot worse. And even in that God has worked miracles. I can share others if we can talk face to face. My God is a miracle-working God. Of that I have no doubt. I wish I could impart my surety
Sorry, I hit the submit button before I was finished. I was saying I wish I could pass on to you my assurance, but you will have to discover that yourself. God is not finished shaping you yet, Andy. I am trusting Him to guide you in your continued searching. Don’t ever stop seeking the truth. YOU WILL FIND IT. Again, I love you. Hope we can have a sit-down sometime. Love, Becky
Andy - you will always be my brother. Whenever I hear a word that is untrue, I will promptly offer the correction.
It’s greatly appreciated. You’re a great friend. I look forward to a round of golf soon.
Hey Andy
I wish I could here you speak this Sunday but I’m going to be out of town. I’m sure you’ve agonized over this issue but you’ve made the right decision. Say hi to Heather for me.
Later, Alan
Good to hear from you, Alan, and thanks for the support. Sometimes it’s scarce. Heather says hello. Take care, and talk to you soon.
Andy,
I’m a Naznetter and Marsha Lynn pointed us towards your blog. As I obviously don’t know you, there isn’t too much I can say, but that I respect your honest and integrity. That makes for a rough road, but I can understand how you would be unable to live with yourself otherwise.
There is this Margaret Becker song titled “Honerty” and one of the lines says: “God’s not afraid of your honesty”. That’s not Scripture but I guess that wouldn’t matter all that much to you, and it can still be true. I myself think it is.
I think there is only one danger really: some people make their need to understand the prime issue in their lives. But we live in a world of mystery, with a God of mystery. Please do leave room for mystery. That would be my only plea.
Blessings,
Hans
Andy -
Thanks for your transparency. Whatever the specifics of faith, doctrine, or whatever, Christ asks us to worship “in spirit and truth” - with all that we are and like we mean it. I appreciate an honesty and integrity that goes as far as to such a decision that you’ve made, rather than a dishonesty that stays in a situation in pretense.
For & Through Christ,
Jeremy D. Scott
Nazarene Pastor
Isn’t it amazing who you run into on the Internet! I don’t if you remember me or not. I’m Jeff Richardson’s little sister. Don’t hold it against me.
My husband and I live in Missouri, now.
If you’re really looking for truth, Andy, you’ll eventually find it.
If you’re looking for anything to confirm what you’ve already conjured up in your head, well, you’ll probably find that, too. People only see what they want to see.
However, what you feel and what you think doesn’t change reality. Things aren’t always as you see them. To say so implies that you are the ultimate authority in deciding what actually is and is not truth… and well, that’s just pompous, isn’t it?
In your points listed above, I noticed something. Every single point begins with the word “I.” No wonder you’re uncertain, Andy! You’re thinking about yourself too much. A wise person told me once, “If you’re confused, don’t look within yourself— you’re the one that’s confused!” Lift your eyes from how you “feel” and “think,” and realize that it’s not all about you. Even if you could have done a better job with knee design, there’s two things you need to remember. One, there’s a God. Two, you’re not Him. And He doesn’t have to give an answer for His behavior although we, one day, will.
In the end, it’s doesn’t matter what we think. Our opinions aren’t really as important as we’d like to think they are.
How bad do you want truth, Andy? Bad enough to realize you may not know it all? That there may be Something Bigger than you— and it may be God? And He may not agree with you? Do you want truth that bad? Read Hebrews 2 with an open mind and heart. I will be praying for you.
Jule: If Andy will allow, I’d like to pose a question to you concerning your comment. Please understand I both appreciate and respect your opinions, especially knowing we all hail from the same original fellowship of churches. (Sorry to waste space with a disclaimer like that, but it’s hard to get the tenor of a comment when it’s just in written text sometimes.) Anyway, with some of my own questioning of late I’ve noticed a recurring theme in the responses I’ve received, and discussions I’ve had, and that’s the allegation of being, as you say, “pompous” for thinking my opinions are true. You said “things aren’t always as you see them.” As for me, I believe that wholeheartedly. I’ve never, nor do I think Andy has, boasted that my lack of faith is in any wise 100% a certainty. It’s for this reason there are questions in the first place. But here’s the sticky part to me…the same ones, including you, who tell me I’m wrong for harboring agnostic/atheistic thoughts because I have no proof and that it’s just my opinion, are the same ones who say things like “there’s a God…(and)…you’re not Him.” Of the latter I’m fully convinced, but where is the proof of the former? Do you possess a map to show me where He is? Does He talk to you? Have you ever actually seen Him, or do you just have a confidence He’s just out of sight but “there” nonetheless? What are your proofs for God’s existence? To quote Andy, I’m “just wondering”? Peace.
Andy: Hey, man…are you gonna continue posting your Sunday messages on the blog? I’m interested in keepin’ up with them, if so. So, I guess this is a request…
We’re a merry band, we three musketeers. There’s Andy, who has for years been theologically moderate, leaning left. Now he’s an agnostic Unitarian Universalist minister. There’s J-Wed, promising young Holiness preacher who got a little too much Audio Adrenaline and is now having doubts about the existence of God. (One follows upon the other, like spring following winter.) And there’s me – a Lutheran and the sole representative of orthodox Christianity among our confederacy. So mark it up to clan loyalty that I am about to argue against another Christian, with whom one might expect me to agree.
Julie: It strikes me as self-defeating to try to convert Andy (who does not desire conversion) by means of condescending sarcasm, e.g., “conjured up in your head,” implying he is pompous and self-centered, “there is a God” and “you’re not Him.” You might remember that bit about bees, honey, and vinegar? Or was it flies?
I have been convinced to my satisfaction that there is a God and he is a Trinity, consubstantial and undivided, the Second Person of which was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, lived, died, and rose again to reconcile all things unto Himself. Andy disagrees. J-Wed is unsure. But you agree. Nevertheless, you make it sound as if all this is a foregone conclusion, in no need of a debate. However much I may wish it, the world is not that simple. It is not pomposity to ask the questions Andy has asked.
He knows that I do not agree with all the decisions he has made. I’ve employed many, many words in the defense of the Faith. He’s not convinced. Yet because I believe that Jesus, in fact, has reconciled the world unto Himself and that He is working through the Holy Spirit I figure both he and J-Wed will come to their senses eventually. (All in good fun, guys.) If you and I are right, Julie, about this Christian Faith then we should know that no amount of badgering will convince anyone. We make our arguments in Christian charity and leave it up to the Spirit.
The world does not divide into Christians and idiots. So I’ll ask you: do you want the truth badly enough to admit you may not know it all?
Sincerely (really),
The Other Jeremy
Hi Andy,
Also found you through naznet. You can thank Marsha for your flood of responses.
I’m also a Nazarene pastor who has really struggled with the issue of saying what I think might be true, even if it means giving up a career that by most people in the church’s standards (numbers) is going smashingly well, or keep on preaching the accepted truth while constantly stuggling with doubt on the inside.
All I can say is that I can’t imagine my God condemning anyone who has been on your journey and decided to live and preach in such a way that they can lay their head on their pillow at night and sleep well. I envy you (well, I guess I’ll burn over that one.)
God bless,
dp
J-Wed and Jeremy:
Thanks, guys. Appreciate your responses. I’d be interested to see how Julie responds.
DP: I’ll be over at NazNet soon. There are lots of complicated factors which go into a decision like the ones we have to make. Why is it that we’re not selling insurance again?
Actually, there’s no more rewarding job once you find the right place to do it. Right?
And For Everyone:
Here are some things I’d like you to consider as you post:
1) Before you say you’re praying for me, ask, ‘am I really?’ If not, please don’t say it. As well, ask, ‘is the intention of my notification of prayer to convert Andy to my beliefs or to remind him that there really is a Triune God?’ If so, I can tell, please don’t say it.
2) Please, please don’t try to educate me about the Bible. I’ve read it. Many, many times. I’ve preached it. I’ve studied it, devotionally and at the master’s level. It has shaped who I am. However, I know all the arguments. I, too, love this text, but I don’t wish to be reminded of Bible verses. Rest assured: I know them. I still read the Bible, alongside other religious and philosophical texts.
3) Don’t accuse me of ‘having it all figured out.’ Let me confess right now that I don’t. There is way too much mystery to have it all figured out. And that’s the problem I had with traditional religion. The church expects a person to be able to say that there’s definitely a Triune God, that Jesus definitely died for my sins, that there’s definitely a heaven and hell. Can’t do it. I do not have it all figured out, but I won’t be hemmed in by orthodoxy and kept from seeking truth as a lifelong pursuit.
4) Feel free to disagree with me. I appreciate serious, scholarly debate, and thank those who are interested in the same for stopping by.
Very Interesting reading material. I’m not sure you are totally right but I’m not convinced you are wrong either!! Just please keep taking good care of my daughter and your soon to be two children. I love you for that! I just want you both to be financially, and emotionally secure. Love ya all three!!
donna
Andy,
I stumbled across your writing while doing a search for a ministry project I am working on. I will let you know that I am a pastor in the Church of the Nazarene, but regardless of what Church I am a part of, I am quite concerned by your article. As I read what you wrote many things came to mind. The most prominent were the words of Paul from 2 Corinthians 4:4 “The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.” Now, I don’t know what kind of other experience you have had in religion, or in the Church of the Nazarene, but I think you are like a lot of Christians in general, who can’t see what God is doing in our world because you have never allowed Christ’s Spirit to completely fill you. I once believed and thought in a very similar way to what you have descirbed. Then about six years ago I had a very unusual medical problem with my leg. It seemed like for a time that I would completely lose the use of it, and being one who had always been very physically active, this concerned me greatly. Even my doctor, one of the best Hemotologists in the world in my opinion, had no answers for me. I was lying in bed about 1 month following 9-11, thinking about the things of this world, and feeling really sorry for myself. It was at that point that I said to God “I can’t do this anymore on my own. I surrender everything to You.” When I woke up the next morning, the world looked different. No longer did I view things from my perspective, but I had a fresh view from the eyes of Jesus Christ. My level of sensitivity towards my fellow man and woman was at a level that I knew could have only come from above. I recognized how I had used the “bad sins” of others, to justify my “not so bad sins”. I realized that God does not view our sins on any scale, He just hates sin. He also loves us so much He does not want us to remain in that sinful condition. To address your four points specifically.
1. You have come to prize intellectual and theological freedom. 2 Corinthians 3:17 tells us: where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. We have to remember that when searching for the wisdom of God, it is not found in the things of man. We have educated ourselves into imbecility.” wrote Malcolm Muggeridge.
2. Sometimes finding a personal God must be done amidst the evil that man has brought into this world. We sometimes forget that we brought evil into this world through our own abuse of the free will God gave us. A free will that does allow us to chose evil, but also a free will that enables those who trust, and those who try, to find that personal and real relationship with Jesus Christ. G. K. Chesterton commented on the effort is does take to be a Christian when he wrote; “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried.”
3. The most difficult thing about the Bible sometimes is that we have to view it from man’s perspective. I am not God, I cannot answer for him and His actions. I also know that God is Love. In the book of Lamentations, we find the prophet Jeremiah crying out to God, asking why he has brought such terrible things upon his people. What Jeremiah finds is that, just like when a parent has to discipline a child, God does everything for a reason. When I discipine my child, I do it so that they will learn, and by learning, they can avoid those things that could cause them harm. God treats us the same way. Unfortunately, some of us don’t listen very well, and He has and will use extreme measures to save us. God has not revealed all the mysteries of this world, or any other world for that matter. Wisdom is revealed through faith, and only through a faith in Jesus Christ.
4. Your comments in number four sound very sincere, and to many of our world, seem like a logical conclusion. Unforturnately, you a confusing the way man treats a human condition and a human legilative system, with the way that God treats human conditions and human legal systems. Despite what we, and I know how many Christians sound when they condemn homosexuals, say or do, it does not change what God has taught us. The sin does not matter, nor does how I feel about the sin. I may not want to stop at a stop sign in the middle of a rural country intersection at 2 am with no other living person within miles of me. But just like that stop sign, there are things in all of our lives that because of the way we were rasied, and because of the varied influences on our lives, we will have different levels of acceptance or unacceptance. This does not however, change the way God views these things. My disregard to a stop sign, when I know it is wrong, is just as bad as anyone who knows their actions are sinful, and despite how they feel about it their actions, still disregard what our Father in heaven has taught us.
I will pray for you Adam, and I hope you will take what I have written in the sincere manor in which it was intended. Allow Christ to really speak to your heart. Pray as David did in Psalm 139, and allow God to search year heart, and listen, truly listen to what he has to say.
Andy,
You probably don’t remember me, but maybe this will spark a memory: I met you at the Apple Butter Festival about 3 or 4 years ago, and I asked you, “Do you have a brother named ‘Rusty,’” only to learn that the Rusty Burnette who was a few grades behind me at Needmore School in the ‘70’s was your dad! I was thrown because you look almost exactly as I remember Rusty looking back then, and it seems impossible that he could have a son your age. The 30 years since your dad and I were in school together at Needmore have flown by.
I found your blog after hearing about a SWID Nazarene pastor who had left the denomination. After reading several of your posts, I am impressed by your intelligence, your depth of thought, and your skill with words. As I read your post titled, “Why I’m Leaving the Church of the Nazarene,” I was taken back to the ‘80’s, a time when I myself took a very similar spiritual journey. Not being a pastor, I was able to take this journey privately; I can’t imagine how difficult the past several months must have been for you as you have wrestled with questions that touch not only the core of your identity, but also your livelihood and your family’s financial security.
As one who has traveled a road roughly parallel to the one you are on, I would like to share some perspectives from this side of journey. As I look back to the late ‘70’s and early ‘80’s, when my journey away from the faith of my youth began, I now see that my faith at that time was shallow. Though I had been raised in the church, I had never developed a consistent habit of daily personal Bible study and prayer. So when I began to have questions about my faith, I sought answers from secular literature and scholars. It isn’t surprising that the answers I found led me farther away from my faith. I didn’t read any of the great Christian thinkers like Frances Schaeffer or C.S. Lewis. I honestly wonder how my life might have been different if I had realized as a young college student that these deeply intellectual men had wrestled with doubt and found that Christian faith can stand up to scrutiny.
At that time, I actually worshiped knowledge and learning more than anything or anyone else. Having come from a small rural school, I was enthralled by the level of intellect I found at Indiana University in 1974. Over the next 17 years or so, I accumulated degrees and read widely. I embraced radical feminism, liberal politics and humanism, accepting the worldview that we can save ourselves through social and scientific progress. Though I never read the Bible at that time, I claimed to know it well. I accepted the common secular view that the Bible is full of inconsistencies and bound by culture.
I continued on this path throughout my young adulthood, still calling myself a Christian, but no longer believing in a personal God or in the verity of the Bible. Then one evening in October 1991, inexplicably, I heard God’s voice again for the first time in many years. It was amazing, because I wasn’t looking for Him or consciously seeking Him at the time. The only way I have come to understand what happened to me that evening is by reading Frances Thompson’s poem, “Hound of Heaven.” This “Hound” most certainly had trailed me for 17 years waiting for an opportunity to bring me back to Him. And He did; quite suddenly my hardened heart softened toward Him, and I began to notice that Christianity includes some deep thinkers and intellects, like Chuck Colson and Ravi Zacharias. I finally reconciled my intellect and my spirituality.
As you wind your way through life, Andy, you may come to a point someday where you’d like to talk to someone who has “been there” and back. In case that should ever happen, I hope you’ll look me up. Meanwhile, I wish you and your family well.
Marsha:
I do remember meeting you. Dad remembered you, too.
I’ve read Lewis, Zacharias and the rest. The problem is, they all begin with an assumption that a personal god exists. I was really kind of disappointed with Zacharias, as I thought he would be a little more objective.
I know that I’m on a journey, and I thank you for your kind words. Maybe we’ll see each other again at the Apple Butter Festival!!
andy
Zacharias begins with more than an assumption that a personal God exists, he begins with an internal knowledge of a personal God that comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Which those who sincerely seek and do not find are too depraved to experience, right? I think I’ve heard this before.
No, that is not what I am saying at all. I never mentioned being depraved, I think I would used deprived. Deprived meaning that that we often deprive ourselves by getting caught in seeking something we can’t find. That is why I don’t like it when someone says “I found Jesus”. I was not aware He was hiding. What I mean is that the things of God must originate first with Him, and how He chooses to reveal himself tends to find its way to each of us in its own special way. I believe that those who claim to have no experience are too busy looking with their own eyes and are not allowing His Spirit to focus their glance in the right place. I think we want God to show Himself according to our parameters, our schedule and our definitions. If there is a God, personal or not, He is still God. He is uncontainable, indefinable and the one that frustrates us humans the most, unpredictable at times. Look today in a direction that is completely opposite from what you have done before, and see if He surprises you. If you don’t believe He is a personal God, then you have got nothing to lose anyway. Also, please don’t feel I am being hostile towards you, I really want to understand how you came to the position you have come to. I am also wanting to hear your thoughts on the longer post I wrote last week.
Dan: What traditional Christians sometimes find hard to understand is that not everyone assumes there is this personal, relational god up in the sky.
Here’s my path: I wonder about origins of human beings, the universe, life in general, etc. So, I seek out evidence or clues as to what might have taken place to initiate all this beauty (and horror) that I see all around me. It’s a fascinating study, but it’s not the most important thing religion does. As I see it, the most important thing religion can do is help us think more clearly about how to live together in the here-and-now. It’s fun to think about origins, but it’s not of ultimate importance.
As I experienced it, here’s the path of traditional religion: At one time there was wonder about origins, but orthodoxy has the answers.
There is a god up there, and though we can’t see, smell, hear, touch this god (the only ways we can gather any evidence in any other field of inquiry), this god holds the keys to our eternal futures. It is, then, of utmost importance what one believes, for this is what will save one from this god who is love, but is also vengeful.
This god’s sense of justice seems unfair according to human standards (I would never create an animal and then torture it forever if it didn’t believe I existed), but cannot be questioned because, well, god is god. An empire has been built on these assumptions.
The sad thing is that generation after generation has grown up, not wondering about the origins of the universe, but thinking they know. After all, the preacher told us, and my family tells me, and the Bible says it, so it must be true.
But I would encourage you and all traditional religionists to step back for a moment and wonder again. Wonder at the beauty that you see on a clear night, the significance and insignificance you feel when you realize that our sun is pretty much just another one of those tiny dots you see, and that any of those could have or may currently have life revolving around it, too. Just for a moment, think about the fact that you believe you’ve got all this figured out, that there’s a god who created all this but knows what time you got out of the shower this morning, a god who cannot in all the universe, for all our looking, be seen or heard or touched. Is that really the most likely conclusion? Does the fact that science doesn’t offer one that is more satisfying make this god hypothesis true?
I have simply chosen wonder over orthodoxy. Orthodoxy is simply a series of sometimes base, evil human beings choosing which hypothesis will become the ‘right’ one (see the history of the Council of Nicea or Calvin’s treatment of Servetus for examples). I, again, choose wonder.
I am glad you chose to use the idea of significance and insignificance and contemplating on our place in this world in relation to God, and I will now explain.
As I stated earlier, I think God speaks to each and everyone of us in ways that are special and unique to each of us. For me, I feel He does it when incredible coincidences occur when I am discussing things of a spiritual nature. This is now one of those times.
About four years ago, sometime shortly after I have entered into the ministry myself, I wrote a small little article, which was published on a small obscure website. I had titled that article “The Significance in Insignificance”. My premise was commenting on a phrase that Jodie Foster’s character Ellie from the movie Contact had made. If you are familiar with that movie, Ellie, whose character was essentially Carl Sagan, made a comment on how there could be billions upon billions of galaxies with in the universe, and yet we as humans have this arrogant belief that we are the only life. That movie was one of my favorites and I had agreed completely with that point of view at the time I first saw the movie. It seemed logical to my logical human mind, and no other logical conclusion seem to show itself. It was years later, upon being reminded of that movie that I believe God revealed to me an amazing truth. Amidst the massive universe in which we inhabit, most of which we are not even aware of, He does know who I am. He knows my name, my joys, my hurts, my frustrations, my concerns and my doubts. It is at those times, when we are feeling the pressures of this world, when we feel so alone and believe that there is nobody out there who cares. When we are feeling like we are so insignificant, It is then that He finds a way to show us He is there, and when we hear His voice, in what ever form He chooses, only then can we grasp the Significance of His love for us.
Romans 5:8 - But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I wonder all the time, and usually it is on that simple fact that Christ died for me. Now that’s significant!
Andy,
You wrote: “This god’s sense of justice seems unfair according to human standards (I would never create an animal and then torture it forever if it didn’t believe I existed), but cannot be questioned because, well, god is god. An empire has been built on these assumptions.”
One can be a Christian and not believe this stuff. I’m one myself. As I read Matthew 25:31-50, I read precious little about faith/belief in the sense of mental assent to some truth. I actually don’t think the Bible knows of such “faith”.
But I do think our choices have consequences.
The god you described above is more like satan in my view.
It’s good to find some common ground, Hans! I really appreciate your take on a lot of these issues. It’s too bad so much of tradition Christianity is centered on mental assent to a set of beliefs.
Andy, I really wonder if I would have survived the church if I had lived in your area. The things Marsha Lynn shares on NazNet make me shiver. Your story seems to be similar in many ways.
Andy, I wonder, have you ever been reading stuff by Brian McLaren or Rob Bell? I’m reading Bell’s “Velvet Elvis” at the moment and to me, these guys picture a very different Christianity than what you appear to have been confronted with. Much more “open”, for lack of a better word, I would say.